MSNBC Hardball - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball - Transcript
Friday, August 5, 2005

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CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Should the Peace Corps include military reservists? And why won't they let Bob Novak speak?

Let's play HARDBALL.
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Good evening. I'm Chris Matthews.

Later on in HARDBALL, should Bob Novak, the prince of darkness, be suspended indefinitely by CNN for walking off the set when he couldn't get his two cents in?

But begin tonight with two of the nation's most prominent governors. Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania, who is a Democrat, and Mike Huckabee of Arkansas, who is a Republican who recently wrote a book about how he lost weight called "Quit Digging Your Grave With a Knife and a Fork."

Thank you, Governor, for joining us with that sentiment.

Let me ask you about something in the country today. The polls are showing-Governor Rendell, you first-a lot of disquiet about the war in Iraq. We have something like-you've got 3,000 National Guards people serving over there from Pennsylvania. What is the feeling of Pennsylvanians right now about the war in Iraq?

GOV. ED RENDELL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, for the first time since the war began, less than half of the people of the Pennsylvania support the president's handling of the war.

And I want to make it clear that Pennsylvanians overwhelmingly support our troops. It is not like Vietnam. But support for the war effort and the way the president is handling it is beginning to wane significantly in Pennsylvania. And that's in great part because the death tool and the injuries have mounted. We have 84 dead. I think that's the fifth highest in the nation, Chris, and over 500 wounded, and some of them very severely wounded. And that affects all of us.

And-and I think the people of Pennsylvania are a little at unease because they don't see a way out.

MATTHEWS: Governor Huckabee, the reaction down there in Arkansas?

GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE (R), ARKANSAS: I think the Southern perspective is considerably different.

Certainly, there's a sentiment of anxiety about it. But, quite frankly, a lot of our folks have been there. We've had almost 7,500 Arkansans at one time or another. And what they come back and tell us is dramatically different from what we're hearing every night on the news, that there's a conditioning process when people hear only the people that are killed. They're not hearing about the parks that are built and the water systems that are being constructed and the neighborhoods that are finally being made safe for the first time.

MATTHEWS: Do they believe, the people of your state, that we're winning that war?

HUCKABEE: I don't know that they have a sense of winning or losing.

I think they believe that we're making significant progress.

They know it's a tough thing. And they listen mostly, I believe, to the soldiers who come back, the ones who have actually walked the streets of Baghdad and have put their lives in harm's way. They feel like that their mission over there has been worthwhile. They believe that it has merit and that they've had a significant contribution to bring about free elections and to see kids go back to school that haven't been in school, that women are actually getting, for the first time, the right to go vote.

That's what they come back and talk about.

MATTHEWS: Why do you think that the national polls, Governor Huckabee, show a decline in people who believe the president is honest, down to about 40 percent now?

HUCKABEE: You know, I don't know, other than the fact that every day there's so much of the media that really does focus upon what went wrong, not what went right.

And I do think that's a conditioning process. And I'm not saying that everything has gone right, because it obviously hasn't. War is never pretty. It's always messy. And, quite frankly, over a period of time, people wear down to it. They want to just move on to something else. And it is not that easy. This is not a sitcom. It's not going to be over in 28 minutes and 30 seconds.

MATTHEWS: Let me take the-turn to some cultural issues in the country.

Again, let's go to Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell. I know your state is very diverse. You've got people who are pretty conservative, people pretty liberal, people in the middle. What did you make of the fact that the president this week weighed into the argument over education and said that we should be teaching not just the theory of evolution, which we all grew up believing in or learning at school, but also alongside that this sort of neo-creationism, this notion that man himself did not really participate in the evolution of the species?

Do you think that's something the president should be pushing?

RENDELL: Well, with all of the challenges that President Bush has, lord knows why he weighed into that issue.

I believe, in Pennsylvania, that we should stick to in education what is proven scientific theory. I also think there's nothing wrong with having our public schools teach religion and comparative religion. In the instruction of religion, we can talk about theories like intelligent design. But I think, in science classes, we should stick to those that are supportable by scientific evidence.

MATTHEWS: Rick Santorum, the senator from Pennsylvania, the junior senator, who is a Republican, has come out against the president on this and said the president-he doesn't agree with the president, that science courses should be teaching this neo-creationism. Does that surprise you?

RENDELL: Well, yes, it does surprise me a bit.

(LAUGHTER)

RENDELL: But I agree with Senator Santorum. Science courses shouldn't be teaching it. If we want to have-and I think it is fair game to have religion taught in the schools, comparative religions. And if they want to discuss intelligent design in a religious course, so be it. And I think Senator Santorum is right, although there's another guy-I happen to like Rick Santorum personally, although I disagree with him on a lot of philosophical things.

Why in lord's name did he come out with a book a year before he is running in an election? Couldn't that book have waited a little bit?

MATTHEWS: I know. Well, we talked about the book on the show the other day. We'll talk about it with him again.

MATTHEWS: Let's go to Mike Huckabee, the Governor of Arkansas.

Are you comfortable with the president's suggestion that schools might properly teach evolution, like was learned in school, the sort of scientific approach, and also, alongside that, another point of view, which is that man somehow did not-did not-was created separately in the universe and not part of the rest of the-the living beings on this planet?

HUCKABEE: Well, I think the proper thing to do is to make sure that students have an understanding that there are a lot of points of view as to how the world began.

Personally, I'm a devout believer. I believe God created the heavens and the Earth. But, frankly, how he did it, I don't know. I wasn't there.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

HUCKABEE: I have to take a lot of things by faith. One thing I will say, Chris...

(CROSSTALK)

No, but do you believe there should be a separate-do you think there should be a public school science course that says that evolution should be challenged by another point of view, which is that there was a separate creation of man? Do you think they should teach that in science courses?

HUCKABEE: I would be more comfortable with simply an acknowledgment that there are many points of view and that nobody actually knows what happened and we can't prove any of them. You can say, this is the predominant view.

But one thing I'm very adamant about, I don't expect the public school system, a secular public school system, to instruct my children in religious affairs. And I frankly don't want them to, because I think they'll mess it up.

MATTHEWS: Right.

HUCKABEE: So, I would rather have those sorts of things focused at home and at the church.

But I certainly don't mind them having a variety of views, because real faith can withstand the challenge. Faith that isn't very sturdy, that's the faith that is shaky any time somebody challenges it.

MATTHEWS: So you think it is unhealthy even to have Bible studies as part of a history or a literature course, literature course, especially?

HUCKABEE: Oh, no, no, no, no. I think it's a-no, I think it's a wonderful thing, because people should understand...

MATTHEWS: In public schools?

HUCKABEE: Absolutely. That's fine.

MATTHEWS: I thought you just said you didn't want any of that taught in public schools.

HUCKABEE: No. I don't want the doctrine taught.

MATTHEWS: Oh.

HUCKABEE: But, as far as to have a comparative religion course or to let students read the Bible, I think that's great. Kids ought to be able to be exposed to a wide variety of subjects and courses and understand, not everybody is going to agree with them.

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE: That's a healthy thing.

MATTHEWS: On another subject-we're touching on a lot of subjects, the war and of course this issue of evolution again. It keeps coming back, but also this hot new scientific question of stem cell research, federal funding for that.

It looks to me more and more like the president is going to have to veto that bill, because he's out there alone on this to some extent. Do you think the president would be right in vetoing a bill which provided federal funds for use of embryonic stem cells for research, Governor Huckabee?

HUCKABEE: I think the real tragedy here, Chris, is that there's been so much politicization of this issue. The president has never said we're going to ban stem cell research.

He is simply saying there is going to be a limitation of the federal funding toward existing stem cell lines. But to hear people tell about it, he is out there banning all research.

MATTHEWS: But...

HUCKABEE: And that's simply not true.

MATTHEWS: No. Nobody says that here.

HUCKABEE: So, we need an honest discussion.

MATTHEWS: I'm going to ask you, do you think there should be federal funding of embryonic stem cell research?

HUCKABEE: I think we already have. In fact, under this president, we've had more funding of stem cell research than we've ever had in the history of our country. He's never given credit for that.

MATTHEWS: But that's because it is the first time it's come up.

HUCKABEE: Well, but he still gave more in the administration budget.

He could have saw that there was no research.

MATTHEWS: Let me to go to-let me go to Governor Rendell.

Up in Pennsylvania, you've got a dispute among the senators-between the senators, I think, but definitely between Arlen Specter, the senior senator, Republican, and the president. Arlen Specter, who is facing some very serious health challenges right now himself, with chemo and everything, he's very much for stem cell research, and has been, funded by the federal government. The president opposes it.

Where is that-where do the people of Pennsylvania stand, do you think?

RENDELL: I think the people of Pennsylvania are overwhelmingly for stem cell research, embryonic stem cell research. They want the ability to have that research help us cure diseases, like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and diabetes, and, yes, even cancer as well.

And I think the-this is not a partisan issue. I would disagree a little bit with Governor Huckabee, who I think is great. But when you have the Republicans in the Congress fashioning what is an extremely reasonable compromise, Chris, that the only time embryos could be used for stem cell is if they were going to be discarded and if they had the consent of the mother and father of the embryos, under those circumstances, I don't see how any reasonable, rational American could be against using those embryos for research that could cure Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, diabetes, etcetera.

MATTHEWS: OK. Both governors are staying with us.

And later on in this program, that's me during my days in Africa as a Peace Corps volunteer. The reason I show it is that the military is now facing recruitment problems and is offering recruits service in the Peace Corps as an alternative to their military commitment.

You're watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Coming up, how are the presidential front-runners for 2008 shaping up? We'll get to that when HARDBALL returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We're back with Governors Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania and Mike Huckabee of Arkansas.

Governor Rendell, the latest front-runners for the party nominations for next time are Hillary Clinton, obviously, on the Democratic side, and Rudy Giuliani, and, of course, McCain on the other side.

Are you amazed had Giuliani is doing so well among Republicans?

RENDELL: Well, no, because I think, at this stage, presidential sweepstakes tend to be name recognition, Chris. And Mayor Giuliani and Senator McCain are probably the two best known Republicans in the field, once you take Jeb Bush out. So it's name recognition.

And although I'm a big Hillary Clinton supporter in so many ways, Hillary is also way ahead in the polls because of name recognition. You know, someone like a Joe Biden, who I think would be a great candidate, hasn't got that name recognition yet. And, of course, it depends on the campaign, whether he'll ever get it. But...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Do you think he might her chief...

(CROSSTALK)

RENDELL: ... name recognition.

MATTHEWS: Governor, do you think he might end up being her chief challenger for the primary, for the nomination?

RENDELL: Before-before it is over, that could be the case, Chris.

MATTHEWS: That will be a tough one for you to make.

(LAUGHTER)

RENDELL: Well, it sure would. That would be a real tough one for me.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Let's go, because...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... a lot of people think Joe Biden is the third senator from Pennsylvania, if not one or two in that ranking.

Let me go to Governor Huckabee.

Governor Huckabee, Hillary Clinton, one of her pedigrees takes her back to Arkansas, which-could she win Arkansas against a Republican next time?

HUCKABEE: I think she would have a tough time. The fact that she's moved to New York, her views are not going to be necessarily in sync with the people of Arkansas, where they are. It would be a tough-a tough sell. She is not Bill Clinton.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, Governor Rendell, what do you think of letting people use some of their reserve time in the military to try to get in the Peace Corps?

RENDELL: Well, I'm not too keen on that idea, Chris.

But do I believe we ought to have universal service in this country. Every 18-year-old should spend two years in either the military or the Peace Corps or AmeriCorps. I think it would be the best thing for the country.

MATTHEWS: OK, I think they should, too, but they should decide between the military and the Peace Corps.

Anyway, thank you, Governor Rendell.

RENDELL: Absolutely. No-no merger.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much, Governor Rendell and Governor Huckabee.

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